Making his third appearance on the podcast, Nick Wolny is the Senior Editor of the Financial Independence Vertical at NextAdvisor, in partnership with Time. Nick’s career includes freelance writing, business consulting, and he’s a leading voice on LGBTQ+ capitalism. Nick joins us for a lively discussion about the evolution of the creator economy, and how new AI tools such as DALL-E and ChatGPT will impact marketers and creators in 2023.
Adrian Tennant: Coming up in this episode of IN CLEAR FOCUS:
Nick Wolny: I think AI could do away with the need for human writers, but I don’t know that it could do away with the need for human editors. If ChatGPT wrote it, but I edited 90 percent of it, who wrote this article?
Adrian Tennant: You are listening to IN CLEAR FOCUS, fresh perspectives on the business of advertising. Produced weekly by Bigeye: a strategy-led, full-service creative agency growing brands for clients globally. Hello, I’m your host, Adrian Tennant, Chief Strategy Officer. Thank you for joining us today. A recent eMarketer report illustrated how the creator economy has infiltrated almost every industry and is reshaping how consumers think about work and making a living. A study conducted by digital marketing agency, HigherVisibility in July found that one-in-four US consumers aged 16 to 25 say they plan to become a social media influencer. And they couldn’t be doing so at a better time. In today’s uncertain economy, creators provide a cost-effective and inventive way for brands to reach their audiences through boosted content. At the same time, we’re seeing continuing innovation in technologies that impact advertising, such as improvements in integrated media planning and execution, measurement solutions for non-cookie methods, and of course, artificial intelligence and machine learning being applied to creativity in visual design and writing. To discuss the evolution of the creator economy and the emergence of artificial intelligence-based tools, we’re joined today by a guest making his third appearance on IN CLEAR FOCUS. Nick Wolny is the Senior Editor of the Financial Independence Vertical at NextAdvisor, in partnership with Time. Nick’s career includes freelance writing, business consulting, and he’s a leading voice on LGBTQ+ capitalism. He’s contributed to numerous media platforms, including Fast Company, Business Insider, Fortune, Out Magazine, Entrepreneur Magazine, plus, CBS, NBC, Fox, and USA Today. Nick is joining us today from West Hollywood in Los Angeles. Nick, welcome back to IN CLEAR FOCUS!
Nick Wolny: Thanks for having me. It’s great to be here.
Adrian Tennant: Nick, in the episode we published almost exactly a year ago, we talked about your success as a freelance writer and Camp Wordsmith, your business and writing incubator for entrepreneurs. But last year you made a big move.
Nick Wolny: Yeah. At the start of 2022, I was doing my thing. I’ve been self-employed for a little over six years, and an editor-in-chief approached me about taking an editor position with a media company. And, you know, it was a full-time job. It was a full-time employment position. And my initial response was, that sounds nice, but no, thanks. Not for me. I’m not gonna stop consulting, I’m not gonna stop my business in order to go back into the corporate world.” and so we went back and forth, uh, for a while talking about some potential contracting, some freelance writing. They were a great brand to write for. I had done a little bit of initial freelancing for them and finally they came back with a conversation along the lines of, “well, what would it look like for you to do both? Can you do both? Can you keep your business going and can we come up with some sort of a position that is, gonna end up being the best of both worlds?” and so they gave me an offer I couldn’t refuse, basically. And it’s really asynchronous my position. I took a senior editor position with NextAdvisor, which I’ve been partnered with Time and is part of a parent company called Red Ventures. Red Ventures owns 27 different media brands. So you probably interact with some of these publications without realizing it. They own CNET, they own Bankrate, they own creditcards.com. they own Healthline, you know, so quite a few different popular publications. So this brand, it’s called NextAdvisor. It’s a personal finance brand. And they had seen, as many of us have also seen in business and marketing, that there’s just a lot of semi-entrepreneurial energy floating around since the pandemic. Lots of people getting side hustles, lots of people resigning and going into the gig economy and starting to do a more, gig-reliant career. And also lots of lifestyle design. You have a lot of people in this financial-independence, retire-early movement, the FIRE movement for short, who are just snapping a lot of the usual rules of personal finance, where it’s okay, lopped 3% off the top, and hope for the best, right? These people are lopping 60% off the top in terms of what they’re making per month, and they’re retiring at 35, 45 years old. And just all, a lot of the psychology that comes out of that, right? And so they’re like, “we need someone who’s kind of one foot in journalism and one foot in this really weird online business space, right? That’s got quite a few characters.” And the puzzle pieces all fell into place. And so last March I started as a Senior Editor with NextAdvisor. I maintained my business, I maintained Camp Wordsmith, in a little bit more of a product capacity, but to have the balance of those two has been great. And I’m the Senior Editor of Financial Independence, which sounds like a crazy title. But basically, if it involves making more money, then I am covering it, from a personal finance perspective.
Adrian Tennant: How do you approach ideation and commissioning content that aligns with these content pillars?
Nick Wolny: It’s been so interesting to be on the other side of the fence right after pitching editors and pitching reporters for seven-plus years, and now to be on the receiving end of that. There are a couple of different factors that I think are good for anyone to know about. One is that I showed up on day one and I had all of my ideas for articles that I was gonna pitch and things like that— things I was gonna pitch to my editor-in-chief. And they were like, “oh no, honey! Sit down, we’ve got your first 30 articles already planned for you,” You know, and that’s, they’re very much, and with many media publications, these days. These are data companies, right? They’ve already done a lot of research in terms of what topics to write about, what topics to double down on, where is there traffic, and where is there traffic in places that there wasn’t traffic six months ago. You know, the audiences are fickle. And so seeing, okay, how do we stay ahead of that and stay ahead of trends and looking for content that aligns with that? So that’s one of the big things that was a shock to my system. I thought it was this, you just, everyone just tries to pitch and the best pitch wins, and that’s totally not how it is. Because at the end of the day, these publications, these media conglomerates, They’re companies, right? They’re trying to do things with SEO and some of those other common marketing tactics. They’re trying to do them just as well, because they’ve got these large websites with lots of traffic. In terms of commissioning content, I look for a mix of journalists and content producers. There are times when I wanna work with someone who’s got a really great journalistic eye. They’re gonna do some exclusive reporting. Perhaps they have a scoop or they have access to something that no one else really has access to. And for some of the people we’ve covered, sometimes that’s their own data. We ran a piece last month about a guy who was working on a book and his book draft is on pause, but he had interviewed 37 people who had doubled their salary. What were the trends of all these people? Some of them had done it entirely within their nine-to-five. Some of them had just left their job completely, but all of them had doubled their salary and these were the things they had in common. And so it was like, “yeah, I want that scoop. If you’re not gonna publish that anywhere, I want that.” And only he could have written that, right? Because he had that original data. So I looked for something like that. And then I like to just have one or two, what I like to call content producers in the picture. They’re just, big, muscley writers that, you know, I can just hand them whatever I want and they’re gonna turn it around in three or five business days. Nice and clean. Not a lot of creativity or imagination needed in that writing, but just getting it done. It’s always good to have one or two workhorses in the mix as well. So I think that was a big surprise to realize. One, quite a bit of it is strategic and already decided on the editor’s end. And then two, just really thinking of it at the end of the day as content production. If a journalist comes to me and they’re trying to win a Pulitzer Prize, that’s great, but my budget for you is a three-figure number. So you might wanna take that somewhere else if you want to go for that. So it’s been a good learning curve so far.
Adrian Tennant: Personally, how have you navigated this transition from being a freelancer to working with a dedicated team at NextAdvisor?
Nick Wolny: It’s been interesting, especially to just to be the person who was previously pitching and to see what editors and senior writers and in-house reporters are focusing on. I think some of the things that I have done as a marketer have actually really come in handy. An example would be things like a Calendly workflow for sources, right? You know, we did a Calendly workflow to book this call. It was so easy, right? And I think a lot of us do that as business people, especially if we’re just talking on the phone with people talking on Zoom or whatever. And so to take that kind of efficiency and the productivity that we have to have as small business owners or as solopreneurs or entrepreneurs and to bring that into like a journalistic space where, sometimes some of these senior writers, they’ve gotta pump these articles out pretty quickly and for them to have their editorial merit, you need them to be reported. You need to be talking to sources, you need to be talking to subject matter experts. And so how do you do that at scale? How do you do that effectively? So I think that’s one of the things that’s been kind of a nice surprise, is that this really, you know, niche skill set actually does carry over nicely into mainstream, bigger corporate opportunities and things like that. But, I think also what’s been cool, you know, I’m the loan editor of this vertical and there are no writers. I contract all the writers. There’s no one on staff. But I have a design team. I’m an engineering team. I have an editorial team. So, I have a bunch of different groups of people to bounce ideas off of. And I think that’s opened up the conversation, Adrian, about content, beyond writing and thinking about like, okay, what modalities do we need to present this information? Like would this actually be better presented as a chart? Would it, would this actually be better presented as a slider that you can interact with or something like that? Being able to operate a little bit more from that space rather than “I know these six buttons in WordPress, and so that’s as far as we’re going on the, it’s gonna be, it’s gonna be a written article and that’s that.” Um, we have space to throw that around a little bit, you know, and you’ve got design teams that can be like, “that’ll take five seconds,” or “that’s not possible at all,” and it is. So I think that’s been cool to step into a little bit more of multimedia journalism and multimedia content creation. And that’s been something that’s been, it’s definitely up-leveled me in the last year as well.
Adrian Tennant: Almost a year ago, we were discussing Li Jin’s prediction that within a decade, nearly everyone will be part of the creator economy. So, Nick, are you seeing signs that her prediction’s accurate?
Nick Wolny: Oh, this question was so hard a year ago, and it’s still so hard. I feel like I’m no closer to analyzing it. Okay, here’s what I think. I think the creator economy is gonna shift. and here’s how I see things shaking out. We’ve got a lot more interest in the creator economy. I would assert you have more people interested in being creators, especially with TikTok. You know, TikTok has a disproportionately high number of people who have 1 million or more followers. People don’t realize that. They’re like, “Ooh, I have a million followers on TikTok!” And it’s actually not that special. They’re, gosh, I think it’s from Social Blade. There is data, the information reported on, that there’s already twice as many TikTok accounts with 1 million followers as there are Instagram accounts with 1 million followers. it is markedly more. And you know, Instagram came out in what, 2009? 2010? YouTube as well before that, the early 2000s really, and so for TikTok to already have so many more accounts that are at a million followers, like a million followers on TikTok and a million followers on YouTube are very different levels of influence, right? It’s just there’s been all this fast build, there’s been all these people thinking it’s just easy to become a creator and stuff like that. I promise I’m getting to the point. So as a result, so for many of these platforms, there’s like a creator pool. There’s a pool of money that’ll be doled out for people who are just trying to monetize from the app itself. So the problem there, particularly TikTok, is having this problem quite a lot, right now. you’ve got one pool of money that everyone’s gonna share. So the more people create the less there is to go around, right? And so I think that what we’re seeing is that creators are actually moving from platform to platform and they’re gonna prioritize the platform that’s gonna continue to pay them well to be spending this much time on quality content. That’s why YouTube is considered the gold standard for creators and has been all this time. There is just no ceiling. you’ve got Mr. Beast making 50 million dollars a year, right? Because it, you just, It’s either 45 or 55% cut of the ads. Hey, you drive a hundred million views to your channel. Good job. we’ll just pay you in proportion to how many ads we were able to run from that. So all that is to say, I think that, you know, more and more people are becoming a part of the creator economy. There will come a point where everyone is like, I agree with Li Jin’s prediction: everyone’s gonna be a part of the creator economy in terms of just having this sort of online persona in some way. but I think that along the way where the creators go and sort of our definition of a creator is gonna change, as the money continues to move.
Adrian Tennant: Let’s take a short break. We’ll be back after this message.
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Adrian Tennant: Welcome back. I’m talking with writer, entrepreneur, and expert on LGBTQ+ Capitalism, Nick Wolny. The most recent CES in Las Vegas featured plenty of tech for content creators. How do you foresee the creator economy evolving in 2023? Are there any platforms that you think have the potential to really break through this year?
Nick Wolny: So I think TikTok is way out in front. and the buzz that I’m hearing in several marketing circles, the buzz phrase, I don’t know if you’re hearing it as well, Adrian is TikTok SEO. You have so many young people who are using TikTok as a search engine now that there is actually substantial search engine potential. Also, the way TikTok was set up, many links to TikTok or embeds or things like that, it goes to a web property. And so, TikTok has passed Google as the most popular website in the world in terms of sessions, in terms of views. Many people don’t realize that. Google held that top spot notoriously for years and years and years, mid-2000s, if not earlier. And TikTok has dethroned Google from that top spot. TikTok is the most popular website in the world. so you’ve got users who are on it, quite a long time each day, is something like 80 or 90 minutes a day. And they’re so acclimated to the platform, they’re starting to just look for things from the platform. And so it’s actually, it is very interesting how it’s happening. It’s, there’s so much content on there. It’s so robust that people are actually going to it as a search engine over Google. And so now it’s, particularly as TikTok is still early stage, do you have brands thinking about, okay, what’s the SEO game for TikTok? If someone is looking up, you know, “sushi in Los Angeles,” if you’ve got 50 videos on sushi in Los Angeles, then you’re in an awfully good spot as more and more people flock to that platform. And so that’s, it’s kind of interesting. We’ve got tons of people who now understand what SEO is, and now there’s this opportunity sitting in front of us where we could actually, travel back in time, 10 years, in terms of results, right? So much less competition. So I think the SEO piece is bringing the serious marketers in, it’s something beyond just this influencer thing where people are dancing and pointing. And, marketers are taking a look at it and they’re being like, “oh, there’s actually some real estate to claim on this platform.” So I think TikTok, you know, it’s, it’s the one to beat right now. And then, I think the other one is interesting. Just all this stuff with Twitter and like, where are people gonna go instead? You know, is a lot of people are going elsewhere, but there’s really no good alternatives. There’s Mastadon, there’s Post.News. A lot of these platforms are also having problems with content moderation. Content moderation is, it takes a ton of manpower to do it effectively, at these different brands. So I think it’ll be interesting to see if someone comes along with something that’ll assist with that. I feel like Medium coming back. I think Instagram has messed up a lot in the last year, so I think they should just take this little chat feature that they’re experimenting with and I think they should go and try claim some Twitter market share. You know, it’ll be, because it’ll be interesting to see how that evolves. And then beyond that, in terms of new platforms, I really don’t know. there are no others on my radar. I think, I just don’t think anyone’s gonna pass TikTok, given some strange situation or some sort of legislation around it. I just think they’re gonna be taking off, all year long.
Adrian Tennant: In your newsletter a couple of weekends ago you wrote that your word for 2023 is craft. Nick. Why is that?
Nick Wolny: I think I’ve realized that when I go the extra mile on that written content, you know, content marketing is so easy to outsource, so easy to give your, to your junior team member or, it’s something for them to do. It gives them process, but particularly as these semi-automated tools start to come out, for different components of your marketing efforts: for design, for writing, for copy, I think people will gravitate towards the content that is just a little higher in quality. It’s a little more direct, like clearly handmade, so to speak. In a good way, not in a bad way. You don’t want your car to be handmade and all that, but, for, but for other things, having to, just be artisanal and stuff like that. And I think also from being at NextAdvisor, I mean, I already wrote a lot and when I arrived Adrian, I was just getting my butt kicked. just in terms of output and, not so much, writing more, but writing very well, very quickly. Um, because it’s something like a news story, like, it’s time is money. And it has to be completely precise, accurate, well reported, things like that. And so I think I just sped up, um, you know, and my writing got a lot better in the last year. And so taking some of those journalistic skills and bringing that back into my marketing consultant efforts, my marketing consultancy promotion, I think it’s been interesting. It’s something I wanna focus on for the year ahead. It’s also interesting to not have hard sales goals. So I’ve basically retrofitted my consultancy into intellectual property and, you know, to not have that be, I think a lot of us have been there, it’s the 26th of the month and you’re 60% to plan, and you’re like, “okay, I gotta make something up,” right? Or, “I gotta make some magic happen.” I don’t have to do that this year. And so, to just really center in on, okay, like what’s my corner of the internet? What do I really want be writing about and how do I wanna write about it? So that’s my focus for this year.
Adrian Tennant: Well, towards the end of our conversation last January, I asked you if you tried any of the artificial intelligence-assisted writing tools that had already started to emerge. Of course you had, and you also reminded us that the Washington Post has been using AI-written content for quite some time. Throughout 2022, creative applications of artificial intelligence gained widespread attention, first with the image generation tool DALL-E, then, in late November, OpenAI made its conversational dialogue tool ChatGPT, available as a beta – or you might say a beta. – less than a week after its launch, the chatbot attracted over 1 million users. Nick, when did you first take it for a spin? And I’m curious, what prompt did you enter?
Nick Wolny: Of course the first prompt I entered was: “Write me an article about how to write better.” It’s like just to completely see okay. What’s happening here? But yeah, I think it’s really exciting. Here’s the analogy that I’m working with, just when I’m talking to people about it, is that: about 10 years ago you had a tool come out called Canva, which a lot of people are really familiar with, right? And so Canva, which has over 50 million users now. democratized graphic design for people, right. It was just one of those tools. It’s kinda like Instagram suddenly made everyone a good enough photographer. It is a similar thing. Canva suddenly made everyone a good enough designer. And, from that though, Canva did not replace good designers. If anything, it increased the appetite for really good design because people got in there and they, they were able to work for a template, but you’re like, “oh, you know what, this, I still suck at this right?” And so I think that’s what’s gonna happen with ChatGPT as well, is that the people who were writing bottom-of-the-barrel stuff, they’re gonna get automated out for sure. But I think also what will happen is people will, they’ll begin relying on this automation and they’ll realize that the writing is just still not that good. Another point I like to make to people about ChatGPT, it can’t crawl the internet. It’s not a search engine. So anything it writes for you, it will not be able to pull in any context, anything like that. So in terms of replacing journalism, replacing editorial, I don’t think it’s anywhere close to that. it might get to that direction soon. But, I think the other thing too is as I, as you just mentioned, Journalism has already been experimenting with AI for quite a while. Most notoriously, I mean, this is so Jeff Bezos, but Jeff Bezos, when he purchased the Washington Post, one of the things he did was, you know, like, let’s create an AI that can take care of all of the really simple local reporting. That’s just kind of, of, mindless. And so they have an AI called Helio Graft. that was proprietary that they built. And Helio Graph will do things like, it will take the scores of the local high school football game and it will just put them into a recap article, that is, think about that sports recap writing. There’s no actual, there was no interview being done with the lineman who made the tackle. None of that’s being done. It’s just a recap of what happened based on the numbers. So all of that gets produced automatically. And so as a result, Washington Post is able to grab you know, it’s interesting. It’s almost, it’s just like Amazon, right? So that’s why I just think it’s, it’s so funny that it’s Jeff Bezos who implemented this, right? It’s just taking the Amazon playbook and basically applying it to the Washington Post. I really think that’s what happened there for a while. The Washington Post jumped over the New York Times in terms of traffic, which is pretty incredible. And it was because of this sort of long-tail strategy. We’re gonna talk about everything. But a lot of these just simple recaps and stuff, is gonna be totally automated out, just produced instantly. So it’s scary, but, um, but I think for many people it’s the first time they’ve interacted with an AI writing tool. And so I think everyone should get on it. Everyone should tinker around with it. I think it has real implications for things that are very black and white, like, uh, seen examples, checking code for errors. Adrian, I was a computer science minor for six weeks and I literally dropped out of the minor because I could not find like the extra comma in one of the lines of code. And this was back, you know how it is. This was back when we like, had to etch it into a stone with a chisel. but you know what I mean? It’s like I could definitely see helpful implications there. I think that’s an incredible use of AI. I think it’s gonna change the conversation about written content, because so many people will just be interacting with an AI who have never interacted with one before, and they’re just gonna get curious and excited about it. So, yeah.
Adrian Tennant: Well, ChatGPT has certainly felt like a watershed moment for AI. Back in 2017, Gallup reported that the surge in artificial intelligence puts as many as 47% of jobs in the US at risk of being replaced within the next 15 years, which begs the question, could AI do away with the need for human writers? Nick, what’s your take? Should writers fear ChatGPT?
Nick Wolny: I think it’s something to definitely watch and to keep an eye on. I’m not not paying attention to it. I’ll say that. I’d love to not pay attention to it cause it’s everywhere right now. But, uh, you know,I’m monitoring what’s happening. I think AI could do away with the need for human writers, but I don’t know that it could do away with the need for human editors right now. And that’s what I think is the distinction there, is that, when I receive an article draft from a journalist, or from a freelance writer, I go through that and I edit it based on obvious things like grammar, syntax, or context, or whatever. But then also based on some of our internal objectives, and that’s what many other people do who own a business, who run a website, are gonna and do something like that. And so I think if you can get good at taking what ChatGBT spits out at you and cleaning it up and then getting online, then I think it’s quite a force to be reckoned with and I’m curious to experiment with that. I’m gonna experiment with that personally. If I had ChatGBT write the draft and then I brought my editor’s eye to it, is it quicker and also the ethics of that – you know what I mean? It’s if ChatGPT wrote it, but I edited 90% of it, who wrote this article? It’s interesting to sort of think about from that perspective as well. I just also think going back to this multimedia journalism conversation we were having earlier, I think that people are starting to look for other more dynamic ways of getting the information that they want to get and be interested in. So yeah, if someone is just writing, they never do any editing, they never think about what they’re writing, then I think AI is gonna automate out those jobs or stuff that’s very dry and doesn’t need context, like policies and procedures that just have to be very highly accurate. Like I could see AI automating a lot of that out, maybe like instruction manuals and stuff like that. But it’ll, I think it’ll be a while before the intelligence gets to a level that it can automate out an editor who’s gonna be the person giving context, or connecting it to sales objectives or, you know, or whatever you’re trying to do with that content that you’re taking the time to produce and publish.
Adrian Tennant: Helping people become better editors and writers is your goal with Camp Wordsmith. For listeners who aren’t familiar, could you explain what Camp Wordsmith is and what motivates people to enroll in your courses?
Nick Wolny: Yeah. Camp Wordsmith is a free web writing education portal. It’s at CampWordsmith.com. You can go and sign up. There’s a free tier, and then there are opportunities to go a little deeper. I’ve got various writing courses focused on four different areas: content creation, sales copy, email newsletters, and pitching media. And then there’s also like a VIP Pass, it’s called the All Access Pass, which is sort of, if you’re the person who gets the fastpass at Disney World and things like that, then you would love that pass. Because it’s just access to everything on-demand. I noticed in my one-to-one consulting, that really that process of getting better at that developmental editing, and of writing, and even important skills like sales copywriting and sales messaging is that there are the concepts and then there’s the actual implementation of the concepts. And even just people who specialize in organizational psychology or learning and development and stuff like that. I think we’ve all put too much pressure on ourselves to go through the online course once and then never look at it again and just expect to suddenly be masterful at that. And so in Camp Wordsmith, I’ve taken like my editing and writing in journalism IP and package that up and so people can consume that on demand, they can do it however they like. and then throughout the year we also do various, like, group programs and stuff like that. You want that added piece where you can get actual feedback, bring those ChatGPT drafts for all I care, right. We’re gonna, we rip out the red pen, whether you wrote it or whether someone else wrote it. and I just think that one-two punch is best for people. My avatar is someone who probably doesn’t have a marketing copywriter on staff yet. About 80% of my clients are service providers, so it’s usually five employees or less, or sometimes just them. And so I think, I just think for me personally in my career, having the knowledge, how, you know, knowing that stuff myself has just, when I’m gonna whip up an offer, I need to do something sudden and agile in my business, knowing how to write it or how to message it properly. It just helps me move quickly and I think that everyone should have this skill set.
Adrian Tennant: Nick, it’s always great talking with you. If listeners would like to learn more about you, your writing, or Camp Wordsmith, where can they find you?
Nick Wolny: I have a website. It’s nickwolny.com. I have a newsletter, that’s how Adrian found me. That’s how most people find me. I send polite newsletters twice a week. So get on that newsletter. It’s the best way to keep in touch with me. And then if you wanna poke around on Camp Wordsmith, there’s a free tier that’s fairly new: CampWordsmith.com. You can also just get to it from my nickwolny.com website. We’d love to have you, we’ve got great tools on just improving your writing, writing for accessibility, and some little mini workshops in there. And then if you decide you wanna make an investment later on that, you know, there’s no pressure, there’s always an option to do that later. So come on over, it’s a lot of fun.
Adrian Tennant: Nick, thank you for being our guest again this week on IN CLEAR FOCUS!
Nick Wolny: It’s a pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Adrian Tennant: Thanks to my guest this week, Nick Wolny, senior editor of the Financial Independence Vertical at NextAdvisor, and the founder of Camp Wordsmith, a business and writing incubator for entrepreneurs. You’ll find the transcript for this episode with links to the resources we discussed today on the IN CLEAR FOCUS page at just select podcast from the menu. And if you enjoyed this episode, please consider following IN CLEAR FOCUS wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for listening to IN CLEAR FOCUS, produced by Bigeye. I’ve been your host, Adrian Tennant. Until next week, goodbye.